“If young girls were taught abstinence, there would be less sex abuse”
Nadine Dorries MP, May 16th, The Vanessa Show
Twenty-one years ago I began being sexually abused by the son of my childminder. The details of it are not something I have ever gone into, outside of therapy, but today when Ms Dorries made the above comment, the memories came rushing back. When I think about what happened to me I realise how my whole life was derailed incredibly early on. I have, in my darker moments, envied people who were allowed a childhood, a life, before they were subject to sexual violence because the way I see it I was no-one before it happened. The me I am today will always be coloured by what one person did to me when I was unable to fight back.
It took me ten years to admit to myself what had happened to me, and another five to be able to speak about it freely. Even now it is something I don’t often mention because I don’t want to upset other people, I don’t want to be that Debbie Downer spoiling everyone’s paedophile jokes as the room laughs heartily. Equally as someone who is open about how promiscuous she is I don’t want people to judge me and think it is because of my abuse that I behave in that way. My sexual relationships have been incredibly healthy. As an adult with control over my own body and my emotions I learned to enjoy sex in a way that felt liberating and fulfilling, something that many of those with less turbulent backgrounds find incredibly hard. How I managed this I do not know, but I am grateful for that small mercy.
That is not to say that being abused has not affected my life. I was six, I think, when the abuse first began, a tomboy who liked reading books indoors with half a dozen imaginary friends. Throughout my teens and early twenties I fought hard against crippling depression and anxiety, some of which stemmed from those years of abuse. I vowed never to let what that man did to me rule my life because I could think of nothing worse than being his victim. To allow him to ruin my future would be to have let him win. It is one of the few times my competitive nature served me well.
Although I notified the police of the name and address of my abuser when I was 21, he was never brought to justice. How can you prosecute someone for a crime committed more than 1o years before? The details I remember are so hazy, almost dreamlike, that I would make an appalling witness in court. The only people present for the abuse were me and him, and when members of my own family were less than convinced by my story why would a jury believe me? Now, thanks to Dorries comments I have to contend with the idea that somehow I provoked my attacker. Was it the neon pink board shorts I wore non-stop that summer? Maybe it was the provocative way my hair frizzed in the heat? What did I do to make myself a sexual being that I could have changed? Why did I allow myself to be abused?
Sometimes I feel guilty that he may have done this to others when I could have stopped him. Others I feel guilty that I ruined a family’s life by telling them their son isn’t who they think he is. Most of the time I just wish I’d never had to tell my Dad what had happened and watch his face fall as the full effect of my words hit him.
Today Nadine Dorries made the quote at the top of this post on a live TV show. She is the same MP who is fighting for girl’s only abstinence education and for tougher rules surrounding abortion laws. I didn’t watch the show, I merely caught the furore on Twitter in retrospect, and still just reading that one sentence broke my heart. If Nadine Dorries understood the pain that abuse brings she could never say those words. No child asks to be abused. No child asks to have their whole life fucked up for them. To say I am insulted that someone would insinuate that I caused my own abuse is an understatement. But this isn’t just about me, this is about everyone who isn’t able to live with the memory of what happened to them. It’s about children who even now are being abused and being blamed for their abuse: by their parents, by their abusers, by Nadine Dorries.
Nadine Dorries has a blog where you can contact her, here. Her email is dorriesn@parliament.uk. It would mean a lot to me if you emailed her regarding her comment this afternoon. I don’t know what you could say, I don’t even know what I could say that wouldn’t be ‘fuck you’, and I don’t know whether a thousand emails would change her mind, but please, don’t sit back and let her carry on like this: blaming those who have no-one else to stand up for them.
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73 Comments
An absolute disgrace, I have emailed my thoughts to Nadine.
Oops. I mispelled my website link, it is corrected in this post. My apologies.
My letter.
Mrs. Dorries,
I watched the Vanessa Show in which you spoke eloquently about your ideas concerning sex education, and teenage pregnancy. Your concern comes across.
However, I think you have not done the depth of research in this matter, that your position as a Public Servant, paid for by the taxpayers, demands.
Eloquence is not enough when it comes to the welfare and safety of children.
You have a duty of care, Mrs. Dorries, that is both legally mandated and morally implicit.
That duty of care is to the welfare of all those affected by the work you do.
Thus it includes all living Survivors of childhood sexual abuse, it includes all those children who are today being abused, and all those who will be abused in the future, because the policies you promote will affect many, many people, and because you made some comments about sexual abuse that I must address.
That duty of care demands that you transcend your ‘opinions’ and deal explicitly with the facts, the material evidence.
Those who have Survived sexual assaults in their childhoods form a very large part of that dataset. Have you spoken to Survivors on this matter? Are those conversations a matter of record?
Regarding your comments which I have transcribed from the program which were as follows :
“from some of the evidence I have heard, that if a stronger ‘just say no’ message was given to children in school, that there might be an impact on sex abuse, because a lot of girls, when sex abuse takes place, don’t realise, until later that that was a wrong thing to do … because” .. and you continue to speak of sex being so common in Society, in marketing etc etc and do not return to this matter of ‘saying no will impact sex abuse’, to the moment the child in jeopardy is in, and you talk instead of the over-sexualisation of our children, as a societal phenomenon and of how that is linked to teenage pregnancy, a point that is unproven.
I note that you made a number of comments throughout the piece that it is the girls whose futures are most impacted by falling pregnant. That suggests that teenage pregnancy is key to your position. Your primary concern.
You have used ‘sex abuse’ as a means to an end. To bolster your particular campaign.
That is disingenuous and it is also manipulative. How dare you behave in such fashion?
What evidence to you have to support your contention?
How do you link your campaign, which is ostensibly about telling young girls that they should say NO, as part of their conscious abstinence practice, (which I partly support : sexual activity must to be consensual, well informed, safe and fun for all concerned, and that includes saying no…) to these comments?
As a child, age 8, I was sexually assaulted. By a priest. I didn’t understand what was happening, so I could not say ‘no’. It was simply put just weird behaviour I did not understand, yet the abuser was in a such position of Authority in relation to me, the child that I acquiesced. He had all the power. ALL abusers do. They are adept at manipulating the situation. Check the facts. Ask Survivors.
Many Survivors have in fact said ‘no!’, and that has then been ignored by their abuser. This is common. Abusers do not give up easily. Some children say no and are intimidated, manipulated and even beaten by their abusers. There’s this question of Authority again.
How does a child, or a young teen say ‘no!’ and back it up, to an advancing abuser when all the real Power in the situation lies with the ADULT abuser? When all their young lives they are taught to respond to Authority with obedience?
The other panellist mentioned the fact that many parents are embarrassed to speak of sexuality to their children, and that her organisation has programs to help parents get over that embarrassment, so that flows of communication between children and parents are more open?
What are you doing to address this really important communication gap, one which abusers are known to exploit?
And what then of children in ‘care’, in fostering, who might not have the kind of trusting relationship that nurturant parenting ought foster, where the child has no-one to turn to, where we know that sexual abuse is relatively common?
Mrs Dorries, I have to say that ‘might have an impact’ is far too vague a term to use, for someone in your position, with the responsibility you have, of a duty of care to those whom you serve.
Perhaps you don’t see it that way. Perhaps it is others you serve, (ideology) or your own opinions you serve. Only you can answer that. But I tell you this, your comments do not serve Survivors or children who are in jeopardy today, tomorrow and in in the future.
You see, Mrs. Dorries, the roots of abusive behaviour are known, they are well described, and documented.. The dynamics of abuse have been studied for some time, the witness of many Survivors is a part of that dataset.
At the root is a lack of empathy. At the root are a range of situations and societal expressions of power, where societal messages that lack empathy are transmitted by thought and by deed, where the power disparity that exists between a child and an adult is abused by the adult, to meet the adults perceived needs, where the child’s natural nurturant needs are not met. Part of that lack of empathy you have ably demonstrated in the comments you have made, quoted above.
Of course I do NOT hold you responsible for the abuse that others do. Nor do I seek to link you to it in any way.
If you are serious about preventing abuse, (which is another matter altogether than the one you are so exercised about, that of teenage pregnancy) then you must study this material.
You must dig deep, Mrs. Dorries, and you must, above all, speak to Survivors…
Here’s some research that would be a good place to start. I offer this to you with respect and with the hope that you reflect on my comments.
http://www.alice-miller.com – Eminent Psychologist whose work or intergenerational abuse cycles across whole Societies, has helped many, many people recover from their trauma, has helped people break the cycles of abuse and prevented further abuse from occurring.
http://www.birthpsychology.com – the latest findings in Science, on the natural development of children from in utero, through birth, infancy and childhood, which describes in great detail, the natural expectations that all children embody, that are intrinsic, inherent and that if not met, lead to pathology.
http://www.violence.de/prescott/bulletin/article.html – Body Pleasure and The Origins of Violence
If you don’t, then I, as a Survivor, must assume that you are more concerned with imposing your personal opinion and world view, through the power invested in you as an MP, than you are with the material evidence, the facts of the matter, and that is, in my view, utterly immoral, profoundly repugnant and I am sure that it absolutely disqualifies you from office.
I look forwards to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.
I will copy this email to your party leader, and publish it on my own outlets.
Yours Sincerely
Corneilius Crowley
I am a Survivor.
I applaud your writing here, I FELT every word of it.
I will be writing to her, not to convince her, nor to assault her, but to place it on the record.
She is a PUBLIC SERVANT.
She has a duty of care, to us, the taxpayers and to the children, who have no voice in the corridors of POWER, that her comments have totally undermined.
She also has the resources – funded office staff etc – to do the research. She has not done that.
She is not fit for her position as a public servant.
Well done for writing so clearly on this, for sharing part of your story, for taking on your own recovery as best you could in spite of the generalised lack of empathy we see in this Society.
I send you the warmest regards. You rock!
First of all, I want to commend you for being so brave to not only share your experiences, but also for clearly being a very strong and intelligent woman. I was not sexually molested as a child, but I did lose my virginity when I was just 13. While it was consensual, I was cajoled into it to quite a large extent. Afterwards, the guy (who was a few years older than me and really should have known better) lost all interest and stopped speaking to me. I was traumatised by the entire experience, but managed to move on and am in a very healthy relationship now. It was only when I observed some classes in a school as part of my recent teacher training that the full force of what happened really hit me. I was interacting with 13-year-olds on an almost daily basis – they looked, acted and spoke like children, because of course they ARE children. It was then that I realised I was only a child myself when I lost my virginity.
I also learned about the birds and the bees when I was just 3. My mum was pregnant and very much of the ‘If she’s old enough to ask, she’s old enough to know’ school of thought, so when I pointed at her ever-expanding stomach and said ‘Why’s that there?’ I learned where babies came from and was fine with it. By Nadine Dorries logic, any knowledge I had of sex from then on thus makes me fair game for sexual abuse. As a matter of fact, I am glad I was clued up about sex from a young age. If I hadn’t known by the time I was 13 about the importance of safe sex, who knows how much more traumatic that aforementioned virginity loss could have been? Dorries’ idea of girls-only abstinence education is not only woefully ignorant (suggesting that even young girls are promiscuous by nature and somehow complicit in any abuse they receive), but dangerous. If we don’t teach young people to make the right choices in life by giving them all the options then I really fear for how future generations will develop and learn.
Reading all this, apart from the offensively ignorant points she raises, I was just wondering why is it only girls who are victims of sexual abuse should be taught to ‘say no’? Or why is it that girls should learn to stay away from sex?
What happens to boys who are getting abused?
I am honestly tired of this separation of the two sexes, especially when it comes to sexual education. Nobody has less, or more responsibility over his sexuality.
I just wanted to say that I agree with you completely, and feel compelled to email Ms Dorries about this issue. Pending her response I will also be writing to my own MP to ask their opinion on the matter, and see what opposition to her exists in my constituency.
Your post illustrates exactly how out of touch Ms Dorries is with the impact of abuse on peoples lives, and how abuse happens in the first place. Thank you for sharing it.
I was abused as a child, and I was put into a Pindown childrens home as a “place of safety” which was being run by really horrible people, they were letting people in to the home to have sex with the kids. I didnt get raped by them but I was punched and locked in a cell, for crying in the night and therefore making too much noise.
I have not had a good time, because Staffordshire have done everyything they can to cover up the abuse, and that includes reabusing and persecuting the victims. I found out yesterday I have been put onto a website for convicted criminals, even though my only contact with the police is in the capacity as a VICTIM of crime.
Its a disgraceful comment Nadine Dorris has made, because she already knows all about child abuse, and how helpless the victims are to escape from it, I know that because I have already written to the woman at least 9 times! They all knoiw, its disgraceful, paedophiles have much more protection of their rights than victims of child abuse. There is a horrible club called the British False Memory Society, it was set up by a paedophile called Ralph Underwager, and they want to get anyone who claims they are raped as a child and it not be proved in court to be put into jail. Well lots of child abuse victims lose their case, but that does not mean they are all liars!
I am sick of it. Sometimes I feel too depressed to function properly, and I have to force a smile on mny face. I have to pretend to be happy when my stomach is churning with sickness, because I feel so violated. Its not fair.
Vanessa,
Firstly, I am very sorry to hear what you feel about your situation. However, I would point out that “child sexual abuse” is a term that is in itself abused by politicians, typically referring to a situation in which somebody over the age of consent engages in illegal sexual contact with somebody under it. Needless to say, I do not support this and believe there are numerous reason why this black-and-white view is not to the benefit of our society.
I do not believe that Dorries was claiming that obvious victims of abuse asked for anything. I think she was simply leveraging that term, because once it is mentioned, people cannot disagree or they are met with “so you are supporting child abuse?”
Of course, that might not make things any less offensive to you. However, I bring up the point because in making the sort of reply you do, I think you are in fact only reinforcing the confusion that has led to this madness in the first place. Because your story will be projected on every case of non-abuse that is reinterpreted as abuse, simply because the law says it “must be”.
In my view, the effective response is: actually, why don’t we take the realistic view, and judge “abuse” on a case by case basis?
When a person who is under the age of consent is forced or coerced into sexual contact against their ill by someone above the age of consent, regardless of whether or not they are a ‘child’ or not, it is abuse. Nadine Dorries implies with her comment that the responsibility to stop abuse lies with the abused person, not the abuser. This in turn implies that the abused should have worked harder, should have said no, that the abuser was not in control of their actions. This is utterly wrong whether it’s being applied to children, teenagers, women in abused relationships, or rape victims. The way to stop abuse is to stop abusers abusing, not to tell people people who are the victims of it that they didn’t try hard enough to stop it.
If someone feels they were abused by someone, that they were coerced into doing something they didn’t want to do: then for them it’s abuse. To tell them that their feelings of betrayal and violation aren’t real is offensive, patronising, and is echoing exactly what an abuser would say.
I am not saying that we tar everyone who is accused of abuse without trial, what I am however saying is that we should not blame the people who have been abused, or imply that they are in anyway the cause of their abuse. That is what Dorries said, briefly after referring to 11 and 13 year olds, not exactly sentient adults.
Vanessa, I absolutely agree with basically everything you say, and totally agree with the need to be sensitive to those who have been victimised (in whichever capacity). I was basically trying to point out that while I do agree, this is to me only symptomatic of something deeper and more insidious. To me at least, this comes across like Dorries has some agenda against teenage sex in general, and is simply leveraging the phrase “child sexual abuse” to tape over the mouths of anybody who dares to disagree.
In my view, the fundamental issue is, as you point out yourself, that it is that actions are carried out “against their will” that matters, not some arbitrary age of consent. (Actually, I believe their are other situations too, for example when a child is simply too naive to make an informed decision on an issue, whether or not at that point the actions are in fact “against their will”). On the other hand, the legal situation is that it is age that matters, and it is fundamentally irrelevant whether the minor ever considers themselves abused. The point I was making is that these concepts are all too often artificially conflated to “win” debates, often citing one or two specific cases such as your own which may or may not be representative of the situation on hand.
Interestingly enough, I do in fact find something beneficial in empowering children to understand sexual desire, although not for the same reasons as Dorries. If you have not read it already, I would recommend a book called “The Trauma Myth” by Susan Clancy – highly controversial, but at least in my view it made some of the most sense I’ve ever seen written on this topic. To summarise (very inadequately, but I’ll try to briefly highlight the necessary point), the author argues based on her research, that the *majority* of pre-pubescent sexual abuse continues for extended periods because the perpetrator does not perceive any obvious distress or refusal, due to the natural compliance of children to the requests of an adult. Combine this with unfulfilled sexual desire, and it’s a recipe for disaster. There is at one account I remember from the book in which a woman, who had been abused as a child, recalls requesting that the abuser stopped when he reached 12 years old. Apparently he did so immediately – it was just that she had never refused him before, so he never thought anything was wrong.
That is not to say, of course, that this is the only mode in which abuse occurs, nor obviously is it a panacea. However, if Clancy’s version IS accurate, then I believe that we are only cultivating a destructive naivity with ideas of “age appropriateness” and so on. And for that reason, I believe we should not shy away from educating children about sexual desire, and somewhat agree with Dorries that they should be empowered to refuse the requests of an adult in the right circumstances. However, as I mentioned, I do not believe that Dorries is coming at it from anything like that angle!
Sorry to ramble on. This is an interesting topic.
Hi, Hope you don’t mind I have linked your blog to Stuart Syvrets Blog in Jersey, a long time campaigner for abuse survivors. Hopefully they will open the link…. Pointless emailing this evil woman, the same woman who kicked a disabled woman in the teeth a while back, she should be asked for her resignation…… why do people elect people like her to government, before she speaks out on a subject she should research what comes out of her mouth, abuse survivors deserve respect and help to rebuild their self esteem not the vitriolic diatribe of this woman……
The Ally.
Can I suggest that all of you also email your own MPs and encourage them to actually show up in parliament the day her insane Bill is given a full debate and vote against it? If MPs think she’s simply a deluded moron (as indeed she is) they may not consider it worth attending the debate and it may go through.
Vanessa, I echo everything that others have said about your courage to write this post. Like many other women, I have had experiences that I neither consented to or sought, and my upbringing and sex-education- abstinence based as I went to a church school- much of it to do with not wearing provocative clothing- meant that I felt guilty about not being more forceful in my noes. However, these incidents happened in my University days, where denim shirts and DMs were the clothing of choice; not sure how much more unprovocatively I could have dressed.
I called her a “piece of political excrement” in mine. I hope she gets shot, maybe be a paedophile just for irony’s sake.
Dear Vanessa
Many thanks for your brave post. I’ve just emailed this to Ms Dorries:
‘I am very shocked by the remarks you made on yesterday’s Vanessa Show. You stated that: “If young girls were taught abstinence, there would be less sex abuse”.
Do you really believe that sexual abuse can be stopped by the victim saying “no” to the abuser? You may be surprised to learn that abuse victims are saying “no” to their abusers already, but their abusers are older, stronger and often in positions of social or familiar power over their victims, and they take no notice. It is not possible to abstain from being abused; abuse is forced upon the victim.
Your statement places the blame for sexual abuse of children on the victims themselves, for failing to say “no”. This is grossly offensive and entirely inaccurate. The responsibility for all abuse, sexual, physical or emotional, rests with the abuser. I look forward to your retraction of your statement.’
I won’t be holding my breath, however.
Thanks for posting this, and Dorries’ address. Email sent.
I wonder if there really is a section of society, still caught up in some kind of 19th century “blame the victim” , hate the disease, culture.
I guess that would be the Conservative Party, then.
The reply is automated:
Nadine Dorries MP
Mid Bedfordshire
HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SW1A 0AA
Many thanks for your email – the Office of Nadine Dorries MP aims to respond to constituents within three weeks of receipt of a letter.
Due to the high volume of emails my office receive, I can only respond to constituents requesting advice or representation who write in to the following address;
Mid Bedfordshire Conservative Association
St Michael’s Close
High Street
Shefford
Bedfordshire SG17 5DD
If you are a constituent requiring urgent assistance, or to book an appointment at one of my regular surgeries across the constituency, please call 01462 811449.
For all other enquiries, please contact the Westminster office on 0207 219 5928.
Yours,
Nadine Dorries
MP for Mid Bedfordshire
Thank-you for writing this. I was abused for six years as a child and what you have written struck a real chord. I was horrified by Nadine Dorries’s comments and it made me feel huge concern that people would think abuse victims/survivors were asking for it. I fear we can’t change the views of people like her but we need to try so I emailed her and have asked my friends and family to do the same.
There is so much more I could say!
Thank-you again.
Thank you so much for this excellent response to such an awful situation. I have written to Ms Dorries and suggested that she looks at the evidence before opening her mouth. I hope this helps:
Dear Ms Dorries – I was horrified to hear about your comments on the Vanessa show yesterday about children and young people who are victims of abuse. As a public figure and politician I cannot understand why you would imply that children and young people have any control or responsibility for the abuse they suffer at the hands of others. There is absolutely no evidence that your idea of abstinence has any relevance to children and young people’s lives. For those who have survived abuse, or are in abusive situations now, your comments can only cause hurt and further damage.
If you would like to educate yourself on the issues I can recommend two of our briefings which explain the views of victims of abuse. It is your duty as a public official to be more careful how you address such sensitive issues and ensure you are informed by more than your own opinion.
Its my body: calls to ChildLine Scotland about sexual health and well-being
http://www.crfr.ac.uk/reports/rb34.pdf
Care and support needs of male survivors of childhood sexual abuse
http://www.crfr.ac.uk/reports/rb%2044%20web.pdf
Best wishes
–
Sarah Morton
Co-Director (Communication and Knowledge Exchange)
Centre for Research on Families and Relationships (CRFR)
I was pleased to send this:
Ms Dorries
I have read reports in the media that show that you appear to believe that child sexual abuse is the child’s fault.
At least one person views you as mistaken: http://nightmaresandboners.com/2011/05/16/nadine-dorries-thinks-i-was-asking-for-it/
You seem to be confused about abuser and victim here. You owe this victim an answer.
This is an incredible blog article and it must have taken a great deal of courage, thank you for writing it.
The ignorance and sheer insensitivity of this woman is terrifying. It is a great shame that there has not been more media uptake on her comments on the Vanessa show, but thank goodness for this article and the comments on it!
A little out of context but quite apt in this situation: “As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others”. Thank you and good luck and courage for the future x
I was 8 or 9, walking back from school. I am the exception to the rule that says children don’t get picked up and assaulted by strangers. He took me to a block of flats next to the one where I lived, less than 100 metres from my school. My mum reported it to the police, whose response was that she’s wasting their time.
I will write to Dorries later, when I’ve calmed down enough to be coherent.
Thank you for sharing your story and speaking out against this woman – she clearly doesn’t know what she’s talking about, and moreover doesn’t care how upsetting her words are to some people. I was sexually assaulted by someone I trusted a few years ago, and all because I dared to say no, to be abstinent. Abstinence can’t stop someone from being abused, and nobody ‘asks for it’. Well done you for growing into a well rounded and healthy person, and good luck for the future xx
Thank you for sharing, I know it must have been so painful for you to re-visit all this as a result of this ignorant woman’s stupidity. I’ve not had time to read all the subsequent comments, only your blog, but I’ve written to Dorries. I’d like to think it would do some good but maybe the good isn’t in educating her so much as making you feel believed and supported now.
Much love, Sue x
The comments are hugely offensive to me and I have never experienced sexual abuse of any kind. I have daughters who are t0o young to know about or understand what sex is, let alone sexual abuse. Children their age and younger have been sexually abused. I doubt Nadine Dorries will care for my comments but the conservative party may ntake note. I’ll be writing something and sending it via the number ten website http://www.number10.gov.uk/footer/contact-us although I doubt much notice will be taken.
I also emailed her and sent her the NSPCC child sexual abuse statistics (http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexual_abuse_statistics_wda80204.html), seeing as she’s doesn’t seem to realise what actually happens.
I’ve emailed her but as everyone else says I doubt very much it will change her views – if she even reads it. Generally if an individual writes to an MP it is dealt with by a minion in a constituency office. I send my love and support to you for speaking out about this.
Thank you so, so much for posting this. I think you’re a brilliant, brave writer and I applaud your eloquence and your courage. I sent an email to Dorries a couple of weeks ago. (I posted it here – http://clothesbooksboys.blogspot.com/) She responded with a one line email saying “Did you actually listen to my speech?” I replied “Yes – that is why I took the time to write this email.” And I didn’t hear anything else from her.
Sometimes I feel like feminism is a burning building I want to escape from and build again.
How the hell did Dorries come to these conclusions? All I want is to live in a world where women can have sex and it’s not a big deal as long as it’s sex they’re choosing to have. Where I can sleep with everyone I meet or no-one at all and it’s not worthy of comment, and all anyone cares about is that I’m physically and emotionally safe. Where it’s recognised that anyone who has experienced rape or abuse needs nothing but support and ALL blame is to be directed at the abuser. Where no school child is made fun of for being a virgin and no-one calls sex workers ‘sluts’ or tells them off for letting the side down. Why is that such a big ask?
I’m so sorry that you and so many others have been hurt (in so many ways) by Nadine Dorries words on the Vanessa show! I saw a post about it on Twitter and was so furious I starting reading about the net, and eventually found your post. I think it was really brave of you to speak out, and your words are so true, and very powerful. I’ll be posting this post to Twitter through our survivors of abuse organisation @survivoroasis.
I was really shocked by her comments about child sex abuse! Her opinions are not only offensive, invalidating, and disgusting, but also absolutely uneducated and ignorant – and a virtual get out of jail free card for offenders!
If she had any idea how hard it is for a child in that situation to ‘just say no’, and in fact how dangerous (not to mention ineffective!!) it could be for them to do so, she wouldn’t spout such trite, patronising words.
As Nellie said, above, Nadine SHOULD be ashamed of herself. Unfortunately, I suspect that she isn’t exactly ‘teachable’, and won’t change her opinions or her ‘wonderful’ bill!! Grrr!!
(((hugs))))
so much of what you wrote here is a mirror to my own abuse. I have been fighting for over 20 years for people to realize that sexual abuse & rape are about power and control over another not about sexual desire. Sex is the delivery system for the abuse not the driving factor. There was nothing you ever did to deserve that. If that abuser had been quietly beating you , but leaving no marks, you would never have been considered to be “Asking for it”.
Abstinence only never works,take a look at statistic for teen pregnancy in states that have abstinence only programs.They have some of the highest pregnancy rates any where . Most school systems DO already have in place lessons which talk about not having sex until you are prepared. That is also the responsibility of the parent having that conversation and making sure there enough trust between you & your child that they WILL come to you and talk to you about these things. It is not the responsibility of the State/School to give your child the self awareness and self-esteem to say “No I am not ready yet”.
Only girls can get pregnant? Funnily enough only boys can get girls pregnant. strange how that works isn’t it. Nadine Dorries is attempting to push a religious mandate under the guise of “helping girls” and she should be ashamed of herself
A really moving and brave piece Vanessa, I’ve sent an email to Dorries and to No.10. I doubt it’ll have much effect on her as she seems to think all criticism is motivated by an anti-Nadine witch hunt. I’ve also sent your post as far and wide as I could as it’s the most powerful blogpost I’ve read in ages. Good luck in all you do in the future x
She isn’t saying that children are responsable for sexual abuse at all. she is refering to the abuse that girls experience when they say yes to sex to be the same as their peers when they don’t really feel ready for it, the sexual experience is horrific for them because they simply were not ready to engage in a sexual relationship, some girls are left bleeding for days and badly bruised. Even tho no one is to blame for this, it’s a good idea to teach girls that lots of girls their age are saying no to sex, this way they wouldn’t feel so under pressure to do this. I totally understand the hurt you must of felt in reading the statement from her, but there are many different kinds of sex abuse and lots of us have been through different experiences of it. I admire your bravery in writing about your experience and if anyone suggests that a child is responsable for their abuse that is disgusting and ridiculous and just as bad as the abuser themselves, so please know that I’m not supporting anyone that would ever suggest this , I just think that what she said was meant in a different context that’s all.
Carol,
I was one of those girls who said yes to sexual activity but then had a very bad experience. I knew I could have said no, but I was a normal curious teenager and I thought I knew what I was doing. But I was 15 and he was 25 and it turned to out I’d said yes to something else entirely and it became violent when I tried to say no as I’d always been taught I could at school and by my parents.
I never told anyone what he and his friends were doing to me because I thought it was my fault because at 15 I didn’t have the emotional language to articulate it because despite having breasts I was a child. And they were the adults who should have known better. They should have thought there’s a child who doesn’t know better maybe I shouldn’t take advantage because I do know better.
And what Nadine Dorries said (and what you are suggesting) takes the blame entirely off them and firmly onto me. Those events changed the path of my life completely and as an adult now I know that only the adults involved should take blame and face the consequences for. I also know that saying no wouldn’t have stopped it, it would have probably just left me bruised and bleeding as you so charmingly described in your post.
Why is it so hard to realise that when an adult abuses a child, the adult is always to blame, never the child?
Nadine Dorries is a self-serving opinionated idiot, and one I’m pretty worried to have sitting in parliament. I hope you and other victims of abuse can take comfort in the fact that most of us detest Dorries and completely disregard her viewpoint. She has no leg to stand on with this one at all.
Dorries might have had a more persuasive point if she had made her remark to the rapist, rather than to his victim.
Is she a robot or something?!?! Has she never MET or even BEEN a child?!!!
This is practically as bad as denying that child sex abuse even happens, and disbelief is the worst thing a victim can face, at least in my opinion (of course it depends on the person and their experiences).
Fuming.
I came here from a link at Political Scrapbook. I don’t know exactly how to react, I’m afraid. All I know to say to you and any abuse victims is that you did nothing wrong, and you’re not to blame for the actions of someone else. I have no idea what I would say to Ms. Dorries, but I like the idea of writing to David Cameron.
Just read that quote again. It’s incredible what claptrap can come out of someone’s mouth.
So what about BOYS? Perhaps Ms Dorries doesn’t know this, but they too can be sexually abused.
My goodness, if we leave them out of this abstinence education, just HOW will they learn that when they are experiencing the violation of sexual abuse, all they need to do is think back to their “Abstinence Lessons” in order to magically halt their abuser?
Nadine Dorries is a dangerous and deluded individual.
And to think I’m now going to email her.
Bleugh.
Ohhhh, so if the hotel maid had learned abstinence, there’d be no sexual assault charges being made against Dominique Strauss-Kahn. Yep, Nadine Dorries, that really makes sense.
I genuinely pity Dorries in that she finds so little enjoyment in sex, and believes that men are these hormone fuelled, sex fiends who are about to turn into rapists at any moment: it’s a discredit to both sexes.
Rather than emailing her, YouTube want to email her boss, at the prime minister’s office, the more people who complain about her, the more likely she is to be forced to apologise, retract and with any luck resign and take her offensive opinions out of the public eye.
Sorry, should say you might not YouTube I am the victim of iPhone spellchecking, apologies.
I emailed her. Well actually I cried a bit, then I got angry, then I had a glass of wine and remained pissed off.
This is what I sent: -
Nadine,
I am taking the time to write to you, despite the fact that most people I have spoken to think that my writing to you is pointless.
I honestly don’t think you realised what you said on the Vanessa show. I really hope you didn’t. I hope to the Gods that you didn’t mean what you implied – that by not saying no, victims of abuse are somehow to blame for what happened to them.
You think girls today are oversexualised? I disagree. Sex is and always has been part of our society and our culture. There was no ‘golden age’ of celibacy, there was shame, there was degredation, there were backstreet abortionists, women killing themselves, forced marriages and mothers being forced to give away their loved and cherished babies. It’s always the women that suffer. ALWAYS.
More magazine has had a ‘Position Of The Fortnight’ page in it since I was 12 . We all read it in school. Was that why my best friend was raped by a man who pulled her into his car? Did she think it was ok because a magazine said that sex wasn’t shameful? I used to read Jackie Collins novels when I was 15, and I used to enjoy reading all the ‘naughty’ bits. Was that why I was raped by my boyfriend? Why is it my fault?
I’m trying so very hard to be compassionate. I’m trying to see your point of view. I’m trying to see why you would say something so callous and cruel, and why you blame victims (and particularly women) for the actions of sick, evil twisted abusers. You gave no reason for your comments, but then you were appearing on the Vanessa show and it’s not really designed for proper debate – so I am giving you the chance to explain in more detail.
I was four years old when I was first abused. Four. I didn’t know what was happening, I didn’t understand it – and here’s the point that I think you miss. I didn’t say no, not because I was over-sexualised but because I didn’t know what sex was. I wasn’t told about sex, I didn’t know that people would abuse, I didn’t know anything because we were never taught. He was a grown-up, and I was brought up to be polite, to be respectful, and to listen to those older than you and do as you were told. I didn’t want my parents to be told I was a naughty girl, I wanted to be good. I was dressed in my dress-up nurse’s outfit at the time – was that wrong? Did I give out the wrong signal? Did this imply I wanted to be assaulted?
When I did learn about sex, I then had to deal with the shame of what happened to me. I cannot remember who or what I was before I was abused, because I was too young. My life is coloured by what happened back then. I’m 33, and I still can’t smell Brut aftershave without instantly vomiting violently, shaking and crying. The shame and the guilt and the burden is still there and it always will be – and it is excruciatingly heavy to bear when someone says something as thoughtless and as cruel as you did on the Vanessa show. I’m not the only one. Victims of abuse and those being abused will have seen it, and will now be blaming themselves. Abusers will have watched you blame their victims and used this to justify their own actions. Lives are at stake and in one irresponsible moment you have shown victims that they are the ones to blame. You’ve put doubt into the hearts of those people victims of abuse may turn to for help, and have reinforced the myth that men are helpless beasts who cannot control their lust and that women are somehow responsible for that.
Lisa, that is an amazing email, I am so in awe of what you’ve written. That is a heartbreakingly wonderful letter, and I hope that it makes Ms Dorries think in future about the revolting things has said.
Normally I’d use the term ‘survivor’ but not in this case. The bitch needs telling.
I read your letter with tears in my eyes. Thank you for putting this up, it was beyond bravery. I also wrote to Dorries, this is my letter:
Ms Dorries,
I read with dismay the following blog posting:
http://nightmaresandboners.com/2011/05/16/nadine-dorries-thinks-i-was-asking-for-it/
Would it be too much to ask for a public clarification? Do you truly believe education on abstinence will protect victims of sexual abuse? Do you not agree this statement places the blame on the victim?
Do you have any experience of sexual abuse? I don’t mean personally (this would be a grossly improper way of asking that), I mean perhaps you have spoken to victims or have some professional experience. If you have, do you believe any of these victims you have met would have benefited whilst the vile, despicable acts against them were being perpetrated through education in staying away from sex?
If you have no experience in this regard, may I request a public statement, to clarify your ignorance of the finer points of this subject. I believe the public, particularly those who have been deeply moved by your words (for good or ill), have a right to know if your words come from knowledge and experience or opinion. As you are an elected public servant who has the power to affect change to the laws and constitution of this country your opinions and their logical roots, especially on such important subjects as the one here presented which you have chosen to raise in public, are necessarily in the interest of all who are affected by them.
Yours sceptically,
Although my letter had none of your personal passion, in fact it’s formality now makes me ashamed that I didn’t unleash my anger on this fool, I hope it helps to get some sort of movement on this issue.
Please stay strong.
Firstly, I would like to applaud you for a) putting your life together and growing up into a happy, healthy woman who managed to put this atrocity behind you, and b) having the balls to share your story and prove what a deluded, uncaring monster Dorries is. I will email this witch about her comments, but at the moment just don’t really know where to start, there is just so much that she should be made to understand, but as so many have said before me, I just don’t think she’ll get it, even if she ever reads it. I will let you know what I send to her when i do it.
much love to you x
Astrogirl: just read the parliamentary exchange, interesting stuff- thank god for the reasonable and logical retort. On a side note one of the MPs presenting the bill, Edward Leigh, is well known to me. The guy is so far to the right it’s ridiculous. He has consistently presented ignorant, fueled-by-his-own-archaic-old-boy-opinions crap like this throughout his (over) long career.
I shall write to this idiot. I have never been abused, but a couple of friends of mine have been. Even if I never met a victim of abuse I would find this abhorrent. How can a person survive with such little understanding of the world? If a woman or man is raped, it is never their fault. Rapists have raped virgins too Nadine. I hope she has stayed abstinent, the idea of her raising kids scares me.
Thank you so much for writing to Dorries. Sexual abuse affects everyone, not just the abuser and the abused, and so I’m so glad you’ve written to her, hopefully she’ll understand how idiotic her comments were and how devastating abuse is.
Incidentally Dorries has 3 daughters, I worry about them.
What a disgusting person Dorries is. I watched the show in question and was shocked no one pulled her up on it; it was brave of you to share this and I am very grateful. I personally will be bombarding her (and my tory MP) with emails. Personally I think such disgraceful comments should be followed by a swift resignation but knowing how stubborn and ignorant this woman is I doubt it.
I’ve emailed her. My MP didn’t support her vile, ridiculous bill, but I’ve also emailed her to request that she vigorously oppose any such activity.
It’ s not much but – Nadine Dorries MP has 17 fans on facebook. Heh.
I almost felt pity for Dorries’ 17 fans. But not quite.
I am sickened by Nadine Dorries insinuating that if young girls were taught abstinence, there would be less sex abuse.
I was abused by a trusted person at the age of 6 + tried to commit suicide at the age of 8 because of it. Sex education at Primary School would have no impact. For Dorries to make her ill-thought out comments demeans + devalues the abusive + destructive experiences of girls.
I just hope that her comment does not impact negatively on the self-esteem + mental health of an anonymous victim of abuse somewhere. Or give an abuser what they might see as an opportunity to blame the child or the state for their abusive actions.
I feel very sad that there has been little media interest or comment about this. I also feel sad that if you email Dorries you merely get an automated response telling you to write to her constituency office (if you are a constituent!).
Since you were so brave as to post this, the least I could do was fire off an email. As others have said, it’s unlikely to get through to her, but perhaps the cumulative effect of many people writing will give her something ot think about.
My heartfelt thanks for writing a post like this. I won’t be writing to Dorries, because she unfortunately is a delusional woman who believes anyone who opposes her is a pawn of the “socialist elite left press”. Her comments on the show (I have watched it online since the broadcast) left me feeling physically sick and unable to leave my room for several hours. After I was raped it took me a great many years to believe that it was not my fault, and ill-informed, misogynistic opinions like Dorries’ help no one.
Thank you again for writing this post – thank you from all of us who *can’t* do the same.
Thank you very much for making this post, and I am truly sorry that you have had to experience such monumental insensitivity and idiocy.
I have an MP that voted for Dorries’ Ten Minute Rule bill and I am very tempted to email him and ask if he endorses the notion that the victims of child abuse are to blame for what happened to them.
Like other commenters, I think that Dorries is beyond help, and would probably only consider a large email correspondence to be a vindication of her attention-seeking behaviour. I don’t want to drive traffic to her ridiculous blog but her response to the fact that 66 idiots in addition to her were prepared to support her was: “I won! It was a very good feeling!” Children in the playground have more emotional maturity.
The woman is a hopeless case but the people on the list below need to know that people in their constituencies are watching what they do in parliament and forming opinions accordingly. Therefore, if one of them is your MP, might I suggest directing your correspondence to them?
Here’s the list from Hansard (scroll down to the bottom and it’s the ayes who supported it): http://bit.ly/j1X4Rm
Thank you so much for that link! In reading it I have fallen totally into crush with Chris Bryant MP, and briefly considered moving to Wales. Briefly.
That made very interesting reading. Chris Bryant what a man!
Nadine is a strange person. She courts the ‘traditional family values’ vote, but warps those (already questionable) values by simultaneously forging her reputation as an outspoken maverick, by throwing in deliberately controversial statements. This will unfortunately only endear her more deeply to her Mid-Beds electorate.
Try not be too upset by her – she’s upset a great many people and will upset a great many more.
No one will get much joy from trying to contact her via her blog – her comments are turned off, and as I understand it, she only responds to emails from her constituents. She’s also deleted her twitter account (for the umpteenth time) – suspiciously soon after a meeting with David Cameron. She previously blocked people seemingly at random on her twitter list.
Don’t give up on seeking justice for your abuser – my friend decided after counselling and psycho-therapy, to go to the police regarding his childhood abuser, and although it was just his voice against the abuser’s, a second person later came forward who had also been abused by the same man. Both statements corroborated each other, and the abuser was sentenced to 10 years imprisonment, and later sued for compensation. This after an intervening time of around 30 years. It seems abusers rarely have just one victim.
I have just sent this e-mail to the dishonourable MP:
Nadine,
I am taking the time to write to you, despite being a full-time vicar and mother of 3, two of which are autistic. I don’t have a lot of free time, but am so appalled that a woman in such a privileged position as MP could callously blame ‘young girls’ fir the sexual abuse that they suffer – implying that they are promiscuous by nature and therefore at fault. Thousands of women and girls are traumatised by experiences of sexual abuse each year. I am one of the people who picks up the pieces. As I pray for all those freshly distressed by your callous words, I will spare a prayer for you – that God might gift you with a compassionate heart and wisdom in your future undertakings. I hope you will also spend some rime in prayer, not only for yourself but for all those you have pained and all those, especially judges and jurors, whose hearts might harden a little bit more by your reinforcement of the idea that men are helpless beasts and women bear the responsibility for not provoking them.
Yours sincerely,
Rev’d Lynsay M. Downs
Thank you so much for sending that amazing email. It means so much to me, and I was really moved that you sent it.
I had a very similar experience to you when I was 8 or so. It took me ten years to even allow myself to tell another soul.
Human beings are sexual beings. It’s part of our nature; it should not be a part of our nature to be abused or to abuse others.
And blaming the victim is the oldest trick in the book.
I wonder what real secrets this MP has up her sleeves…..
I have emailed her, for all the good it will do.
Thank you Vanessa for having the courage to share this.
Thank-you so much for emailing her, I agree it may not do a lot to email her, but we can dream can’t we?
love you.
I love you too Saphi-boo. x
went and found it http://www.channel5.com/shows/the-vanessa-show/episodes/episode-91-29 she starts implying some dodgy stuff at around 19 minutes and actually comes straight out with it at 19:54 if anyone would actually like to see the evidence. (it’s only up for a week so unless someone can get the clip into youtube or similar we’ll lose it after that).
Thank you so much for the link! When I wrote this the show wasn’t yet up, which was incredibly annoying!
It was very brave of you to post this. I hope, hard though it will feel just now, that it will prove a useful thing for you, something that contributes to you growing stronger.
I too was abused as a child and I too am furious at the suggestion that it was my job to stop it, not my abuser’s job to keep his goddamn hands off me. But I saw the Dorries thing and I honestly believe that she is simply too stupid to understand the implications of what she said.
That doesn’t mean, of course, that she shouldn’t be challenged. Even if she never gets it there are others who might. We must not allow people like her to push their idiotic ideas at others who may buy into them without thinking. In particular, we must ensure that no child who is being abused accepts her suggestion that they are the one to blame.
I do worry that Dorries doesn’t realise, or doesn’t care, about how ignorant and hurtful her words are, and I’m not expecting her to change her tune overnight. She has a track record of saying similar, terrible, things, but I hope that if even one email reaches her, then she’ll have cause to stop, reflect, and maybe think before she speaks in the future.
I don’t want to cheapen or diminish what you have written. It must have taken a tremendous amount of courage to order your mental world to a place where you felt you could expose this. It may have been far more than uncomfortable to write it. I wouldn’t know but I can guess. I’m just writing these thoughts because I want you to understand that from my narrower perspective, I have a degree of understanding.
So.
Unfortunately Nadine Dorries does not have the ability to understand. I will, as you have asked, write to her. But I feel it will be a wasted effort. I am sad that it will be a wasted effort, but everything that I have read and listened to either about, or from Nadine Dorries, underlines her inability to perceive things from a different viewpoint. She is our Sarah Palin, on many different levels.
I totally agree that it’s highly unlikely that Dorries will change her mind, or that she’ll even care to read the emails, but sometimes I feel like it’s better to do something than to do anything at all.
If she reads them, if she takes a single second out of her day to think about what she said, then it’ll be worth it.
Have done as you suggested. Vile woman
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